What is Israel anymore?

There’s really no better place to debate this most meritorious topic than the great forumi  :

pete_dushenski: And hello #t !
asciilifeform: Ohai pete_dushenski

pete_dushenski: How goes alf ?
asciilifeform: Unrelatedly, I noticed pete_dushenski had a piece re Israel — were you awake for the hagana thread ?

pete_dushenski: I have several such pieces on teh zion, neh ?ii
pete_dushenski: !#s hagana
a111: 2 results for “hagana”, http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=hagana

pete_dushenski: Looks like this one ? http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-09#1268888
a111: Logged on 2015-09-09 22:08 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: ‘hagana’ et al set the gold standard for blowing up brits, aha

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-12#1669363 , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-13#1669495 , possibly elsewhere
a111: Logged on 2017-06-12 23:16 asciilifeform: ^ ‘altalena affair’ resulted in the switcheroo where the upstanding folx ( irgun et al, who held the position ‘rm -rf britain’ , were replaced by the internationalkomyooniti obedient muppet circus who ended up ‘recognized’ by said komyooniti as ‘israel’
a111: Logged on 2017-06-13 14:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very funny that jew thing you dug out. literally, the ENTIRE argument is “hey, let us scam you, because that’s what goverments do, and if the goyim see us scamming you they’ll believe w r government”.

asciilifeform: tldr : Eretz Israel ™(r) got gavincoinediii early on. Successfully.
pete_dushenski: Aha, I recall that thread well.

asciilifeform: Aite. Picture, the original was something vaguely TMSR-flavoured. Replaced — with the familiar socialists and misc. quislings ( who first ‘Peace With British’, despite the British being the folx nailing the door of Nazi Europe shut; afterwards — ‘Peace With Arab’ )
pete_dushenski: Not totally sure I buy the thesis but I can see where it comes from. At the very least current-day .co.il has ‘chechens’iv to actively oppress, unlike US which just beats the piss out of itself.

asciilifeform: The moar I dig, the moar I buy the thesis. Currently hitting language barrier tho, gotta strengthen my .il-foo.
pete_dushenski: Alphabet is only 22-characters, it’s doable.

asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: bwhaahah
pete_dushenski sees that his hebe joek is well received.

pete_dushenski: Or maybe translation is a project for otherwise loose cannons (eg. adlai )
asciilifeform: Relying on translators suxx. You oughta know that.

pete_dushenski: Of course, but only 24 hours in a day. I’m more inclined to liken the ‘new’ .il to that of ‘new’ China : sucks up resources of imploding empire for as long as the going is good all while increasing self-sustainability and military capability. Israel might be socialist but they’re nowhere near as soft-bodied as the decaying west. Closer to .su-.cn hybrid than .su-.us hybrid… Lol gotta love that bitbet is back… o brother what a gongshow.v
asciilifeform: Modern-day .il is a parasitic rider on USG — and not merely in the well-known ‘free money’ sense, but also in that the ~only exports are ‘intellectual property’ racket, which rides on USG’s patent enforcement shakedown.

mircea_popescu: This is rather not true. Israel is up there with Romania and the technological greats in “valuable subassembly production”.
pete_dushenski: You think anyone takes USG’s IP racket seriously anymore ? This isn’t the 1960s.

asciilifeform: Witness, USA and its NATO colonies still pay sticker price for .il pharma.
pete_dushenski: And ? What does this prove other than that girl playing house knocks on wall of cardboard box before entering ?

pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680613 << I undertook ‘yeshiva‘ which didn’t explicitly involve log highlighting and dissection even if it sometimes turned out that way. I should actually make a separate category on the ol’ blog for #t logs levitan’d.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 03:18 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680532 << at one time we had a fella ( pete_dushenski ? ) embark on a ‘major life and times of the l0g’ thing. what became of this ?

asciilifeform: What in this case means yeshiva if not ‘log highlighting and dissection’ , out of curiosity ?
pete_dushenski: ‘Yeshiva’ needn’t be as public as i made it is all. Then again the alternative to public yeshiva is ‘lurker’ than somehow, someway never seems to mature into full blown adulthood.

asciilifeform: The pharma thing is simply another way of funneling payola, is all. ( USG uses the ‘crack whore’ business model with the israelis. send payola, but also keep’em from actually solving – via proper genocide + conquest of moar desirable real estate — the problem that requires the infinite payola to begin with ). Why to do this — originally was simply to preserve british empire. later, to keep the fire burning, so that nothing fit to challenge the reich is born from the ash.
pete_dushenski: No argument that payola is funneled, but cui bono ?

asciilifeform: See above.
pete_dushenski: Reich doesn’t need challenging anymore, does it. Looks like it’s pretty well occupied with the enemy within.

asciilifeform: ( See also ‘Taiwanization’, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-01#1511945 ) ‘Our cow died but hey, we can burn the neighbour’s barn’
a111: Logged on 2016-08-01 00:44 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-01#1511937 << oh, “color revolutions” dun work ? tell you what, we’ll steal your country’s exports and with the proceeds finance an alt-country we’ll pretend is realy your country. ha-ha!

asciilifeform: ‘Doesn’t need no moar’ is immaterial — just like a freshly cut out liver is still trying, best as it can, to do its enzymatic business as if nothing happened, same — Reichs. The anglos ultra-specialized in the ‘divide and conquer’ thing, it is burned into their firmware somehow.
pete_dushenski: Just like chopped liver, you only like Reich if you grew up with it.

asciilifeform: How’s that relate ?
trinque: > ultra-specialized in the ‘divide and conquer’ thing << superpower of the schizoid?

pete_dushenski: Just because you’re eating the liver, doesn’t mean you won’t find another source of food when it’s gone or as soon as the aging father finally croaks. But this is a stretch analogy.
asciilifeform: Try as I might, I can’t follow this.

pete_dushenski: Ya, reaching for sure. The point upstack was that paying sticker for pharma helps arm .il to the gills more than it helps USG maintain international kommonity relevance and that the former will outlast the latter. Recall that .il can and did actually build ‘wall’, not just talk about ‘When I’m elected Ima do such and such herpadurr’.vi
asciilifeform: AFAIK they still dun have a, e.g., self-made fighter jet. (Tried to, but USG offered ‘for phreeee’ and israelis were dumb enough to bite the hook)

mircea_popescu: The irony of it is that they stealthy do! when the Romanians wiped the US Airforce out of the skies during that lulz exercise, what did it other than the pilots was the recently deployed Israeli electronic upgrade. The Russians have no planes without the Israeli bits. Which means in point of fact that yes, the Israelis have a fighter jet. And the best kind there can be had, also — another’s wife. (The event also set US policy — the reason they moved to tomahawk-from-boat rather than the 1990s-style Iraq sorties is that US Airforce could not actually stand up to Ro Airforce if it came to dogfight, which is more ridiculous than it sounds.)
asciilifeform: If so, this does not bode well for Ru planes if they ever face .il

pete_dushenski: Because everyone know you need fighter jet in 21st century!!!1vii
asciilifeform: Did somebody build tesla’s 100km death ray while asciilifeform slept, or wut. Nobody cancelled the jet.

mircea_popescu: Ahaha. Look into it sometime :D as it stands currently, the Russians will have the last jet much like the Germans have the last car.viii
BingoBoingo: But as we learned from pete_dushenski, sometimes the lawnmower’s more fun.

pete_dushenski: For whatever ‘cybermilitary’ is worth, i’d pit .il against any other
mircea_popescu: Any other but Iran, but sure.ix

trinque recalls mircea_popescu’s observation re: CN and missiles. In contrast to aircraft carrier Power Projection (TM)
pete_dushenski: This is post-nation-state world, cyber-d and a little bit of land is the best you can hope for.x

asciilifeform: Mojahed Kalash dun run Winblows. ‘Cyber’ only works against overcivilized idiots.
pete_dushenski: Mojahed runs Winbloze… on phone.xi Or his boss does. Or his gf does. Or the new recruit does. “Coming to a pocket near you” ™

trinque: What’d happen with the various Sunni powers if suddenly USG vanished? Meanwhile, correct me if wrong, they’re all stacked with American military hardware. Was this true in the last such war?
mircea_popescu: Kinda, yeah. And before that, French materiel they ~didn’t know how to use either. Lotta period lulz about British Spitfires strafing Bedouin warparties etc.

pete_dushenski: Some Russian hardware too, and increasingly Chinese as per http://archive.is/xhzQI
mircea_popescu: The framing is so lulzy. Really, “unable to buy us junk”, that’s the lead ? Cuz they totally would have bought if … they could… get it for free ? And under no other circumstances ? Awww.

trinque: Heh, then the next one should be just as lulzy.
mircea_popescu: Prolly. Anyway. the “UAE demands to Qatar” redo of WW1-era “Serbian Ultimatum” is … still ongoing!! Now with revisions and etc. but in more practical terms, apparently “teh terrorists” actually took over a country on the quiet.

asciilifeform: That’d depend on whether ‘USG vanishes’ includes ‘USG remote-disable codes leak’
trinque: My amateur eye sees, at least, a region stacked for a rough war.

pete_dushenski: When SU ‘vanished’ did nuke codes leak ? If so, why no kablooey ?
mircea_popescu: They didn’t work. But yes, early 90s you could buy SU nuke parts on black market.

asciilifeform: SU didn’t do the remote-disable thing, for exported iron. Merely sold 2-3 generations behind state of the art. Other thing, remote-boobies are difficult with transistor-poor culture. No place to hide.
pete_dushenski: IC. Makes sense, but ya, trinque’s q is still open then.
trinque: Y’know, if they’re used to leaning on / suckling from USG, and it crumbles, they might consider leaning on whichever is biggest. Turkey?

asciilifeform: Last I heard, Turks dun make own jet either..
trinque: Buy from RU/CN; do either of them like Israel?

asciilifeform: Not while it remains a muppet of a living USG, lol.
trinque: Right, so USG crumbles, Erdrogan or whoever throws a big neo-caliphate party, invites everyone to go Israel-stomping. Russia and China collectively “meh” and lol at the US losing a colony.

mircea_popescu: Absolutely not. If USG fell into the sea tomorrow, Turkey would ally with Israel and probably Iran against the rest of the weirdos and they’d throw such an Arab Peninsula rape party as the world’s never seen. ~Everyone there’s sick of the “rich” arab nations as of crab apples.
BingoBoingo: Poor crab apples, many are enslaved as the plumbing that allows fruiting apples to live. This is a rich metaphor space.

So is the US actually useful in the Middle East ? The answer is that it depends on your vantage point. At this point Trump et al. are doing more to keep a buncha sheep-fucking shieks in pristine white robes than keeping post-Kibutzniks safe at night ; so if you’re in the former camp it’s “USAUSAUSA” (whether they admit it or not) but it’s a pretty legit “meh” if you’re in the latter. So it is that as the sun continues to set on the American Empire, it won’t be Israel’s relevance that fades with it into the distance but rather the ungodly desert skyscrapers dotting the Arab Peninsula. As other commentatorsxii have point out, the Saudi “stability” is a mirage.

Israel, on the other hand, simply isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. It’s a land of innovation, creative destruction, relative freedom and considerable prosperity in the region. Its long-term prospects are therefore ultimately closer to that of Switzerland than California.

But maybe that’s just the Lindy Effect for you.

___ ___ ___

  1. Edited only to patch together a few temporal incongruities, but still adnotated. []
  2. There’s at least Why I’m not a Zionist.Part 1: Better Place Israel Experience Center: Did I Just Drive Our Future?, and Part 2: Better Place Israel Experience Center: I Just Drove (One Version Of) Our Future.  []
  3. To be “gavincoined” is a term of art based on ancient history you’re probably too young to recall. If you need a refresher, this is a good place to start. []
  4. This being a reference to another #t classic :

    ascii_butugychag: i actually prefer shoveling snow to work.
    mircea_popescu: you have that much in common with 1980s inteligentsia in the other usg.
    ascii_butugychag: aha! i’d trade it for furnace stoking, also. just like’em. but see, in the other usg, you could actually take up those professions and still live like a white man. furnace stoker, night watchman, etc. were beloved trades of thinking folk. (paid same as engineer, believe it)
    mircea_popescu: well yes, because racist empire.
    ascii_butugychag: l0lwut
    mircea_popescu: soviets had a russian > cecen thing going, as a matter of course if not as a matter of law.
    ascii_butugychag: ah that, yes
    mircea_popescu: well that, yes. what do you think is always and forever at the fundament of ” you could [] still live like a white man” ? gotta define white man! through the exclusion of someone, somewhere.

    Israel ensures “white man” by keeping the unwashed palestinians buried in their own rubble to every extent possible. Because how else ? Not that this is a small matter, none of their “fellow moslems” can be bothered to host the pallies so generously. ‘Tis is a mitzvah!   []

  5. Fer reel. Not that I ever trusted the non-WoT owner who couldn’t secure her own email, but that anyone is foolish enough to trust their coins there is simply a testament to the biological need for sheep to be sheared. []
  6. Have you seen the wall with Mexico ? Neither have I. But there are early days in the Trumpreich. We’ll give him the fullness of his three terms before judging his presidency. []
  7. This was a missed opportunity to infuse my sarcasm with the layered lulz of “most people know.” Alas, the moment came and went! []
  8. Arguably the Japanese have built the last car but the point stands either way. []
  9. Did you know that Iran was a great global cybermilitary power ? Me neither but now we do! []
  10. Y’see the future of states is small and beautiful. []
  11. Gotta capture the moment. Eternal gloreeeee!!!1 []
  12. Namely NN Taleb. []

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